A Bit of Shame
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Speaker A: Hello, and welcome back to Big Mood, Little Mood.
Speaker A: I’m your host, Dani Lavery, and with me in the studio this week is Felicia Reich, a non fiction comedy writer of personal essays and cultural commentary who lives in Brooklyn with her collection of books, decorative pillows, and concert posters.
Speaker A: Felicia, welcome to the show.
Speaker B: Hi, Dani.
Speaker B: Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker B: It’s lovely to see you again.
Speaker A: I’m so glad to be seeing you again, too.
Speaker A: And I am curious, do you have any recommendations for either good places to get decorative pillows or how many decorative pillows is too many?
Speaker A: If you have a thought on quantity.
Speaker B: So first question first.
Speaker B: A little antique store in Cold Spring in upstate New York or the Hudson area.
Speaker B: I know people get sensitive about that, so I would say, like, beacon Cold Spring, you’re in good company when it comes to decorative pillows.
Speaker B: Mine in particular is one of a set of four of the many seasons the muka paintings of fall, spring, summer, winter.
Speaker B: I have fall because I am a November baby.
Speaker B: And then in terms of how many, the limit does not exist.
Speaker A: So you’re telling me you could walk into someone’s house and truly every surface was covered in decorative pillows, and you wouldn’t for a moment think, this is a little bit too much?
Speaker B: I think that they would need to be tasteful.
Speaker B: I think that they would need to tell a story with their pillows and maybe keep some special ones aside for seasons.
Speaker B: A particular guest, perhaps.
Speaker B: But yeah, otherwise you’re fine.
Speaker A: I do really like the idea of telling a story with pillows, and I didn’t even know that people got upset about calling something upstate versus the Hudson area.
Speaker A: So thank you.
Speaker A: Now you’ve saved me from potentially offending an upstate.
Speaker A: To me, I think if you’re out of the city, you’re up the state.
Speaker B: Common misconception.
Speaker A: This is a common misconception.
Speaker A: I’m a classic west coast guy.
Speaker A: I don’t know what I’m doing.
Speaker A: When do you feel that it begins?
Speaker B: I don’t know.
Speaker B: There is a train stop that kind of eliminates it.
Speaker B: But, yeah, I would say if you’re like an hour, I would say the Hudson region doesn’t really count yet as upstate, Syracuse, Buffalo.
Speaker B: Now we’re talking upstate.
Speaker A: Now we’re talking upstate.
Speaker A: Okay.
Speaker A: Well, I would not want to bring down the wrath of, I guess, Henrik Hudson upon me, so I will watch myself.
Speaker A: And just going with my gut, I’m going to go ahead and say 13 pillows is my upper limit.
Speaker A: Decorative pillows in a single room.
Speaker A: More than that, and I’m not going to say anything while I’m in your house, but I might send a bitchy text to somebody else once I walk out your front door.
Speaker A: I wouldn’t do that.
Speaker B: Watch out.
Speaker B: I think if it impedes the functional living of the space, then that’s a conversation to have.
Speaker A: Yeah, there’s got to be a ceiling to almost anything, no matter how wonderful that thing is.
Speaker A: But I can’t remember last time I walked into someone’s house and I thought, there’s too many pillows here.
Speaker A: So clearly people have a lot of room to move up.
Speaker B: As they should.
Speaker A: As they should.
Speaker A: So speaking of clutter, this is not a great segue, but here we are.
Speaker A: Our first question is one that I like a lot.
Speaker A: I haven’t quite gotten one like this in a while, but I feel like there’s a lot of really interesting directions we can take this in.
Speaker A: And it sort of has to do with the collective archive of family memory and not just what you remember from your own youth, but how other people in your family talk about your youth and how that can sometimes be brought up in a way to sort of maybe be affectionate.
Speaker A: Maybe chide can sometimes make somebody feel like they’re being actively misunderstood or consigned to the past in a way that feels distressing.
Speaker A: And as always, trying to figure out, what do you do with the specter of I’m afraid someone’s going to call me too sensitive.
Speaker A: And then that’s going to be the end of everything.
Speaker A: Because once somebody says you’re too sensitive, you feel sensitive, but you can’t say so because you’ve been backed into a corner and it just sort of shuts everything down.
Speaker A: So I was really feeling for this letter writer, I think it’s hard to figure out how do you avoid or anticipate the possibility of being slapped with that label?
Speaker A: Would you mind reading it?
Speaker B: No, I wouldn’t.
Speaker B: So the subject is hands off my memories.
Speaker B: I’m the only child in quotations in a large and loving extended family with several aunts and uncles.
Speaker B: These relatives, one aunt in particular, love to tell each other and or me stories about my childhood and young adulthood.
Speaker B: These stories range from the harmless you loved XYZ candy as a child to remember when you ordered the most expensive thing on the menu, even though I was strapped for cash.
Speaker B: To, you used to get so upset about X once or twice this has been about my abusive stepdad.
Speaker B: To, you used to treat your childhood friends in X bad way.
Speaker B: This last one said in front of one of these friends who seemed perplexed.
Speaker B: These stories are not malicious, but often misrepresent the situation or are outright false.
Speaker B: To me, the point seems to be, weren’t you silly, stupid, emotional, selfish?
Speaker B: I think they think that adult me will take their side.
Speaker B: But from my perspective, my behavior as a child makes complete sense.
Speaker B: It’s my childhood, not an amusing story that I can stay neutral on.
Speaker B: How can I handle these situations?
Speaker B: Most often, I just retreat into myself.
Speaker B: I’m quite socially anxious already, and these situations linger for a long time and make me rethink behaviors, memories I thought were positive.
Speaker B: If I brought this up.
Speaker B: I suspect they’d feel I was overly sensitive or ruining their reminiscing.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker A: So the thing that was really interesting here to me was the idea of not just being an only child within your nuclear family, but you don’t have cousins that are your age.
Speaker A: It’s it it’s everybody in a generation above you and then it’s you.
Speaker A: And I’ve never been in that position, but I can imagine it would definitely feel weird in terms of you don’t even have someone contemporary to sort of say, hey, is this weird that the older generation does this?
Speaker A: Or like, do we sort of collectively want to push for a different kind of treatment?
Speaker A: It’s just you out there and so I can really imagine how in that sort of family, you’re going to be the baby until you’re 75.
Speaker B: Yeah, that’s a great point and it definitely makes my heart extend for the letter writer because you don’t have anyone to corroborate your story and you are very alone in this fight.
Speaker B: Not that it needs to be a fight, but just I have cousins, I have a sibling, and it’s a bonding moment to be like, aren’t the adults acting in XYZ sort of way and just kind of having your reality validated is very helpful.
Speaker B: And that seems to be the kind of underlying current of this letter, is their reality seems to be getting distorted and that’s a very difficult thing to contend with, especially like, coming into adulthood.
Speaker B: That’s a very common process, but it can be difficult.
Speaker B: So, yeah, I feel for the letter writer.
Speaker A: Yeah, me too.
Speaker A: And honestly, even if you don’t have a great relationship or rapport with those siblings and cousins, if nothing else, it can just take the heat off of you sometimes, right?
Speaker A: Like, even if you’re not getting that support, at least sometimes it’s somebody else’s turn.
Speaker A: For better and for worse, you are the center of attention here.
Speaker A: So my sense here was the sort of things that are troubling the letter writer really run along a wide spectrum, which makes sense.
Speaker A: It’s a broad tendency.
Speaker A: So some of this stuff, it sounds like, especially with the aunt who does this most often, and especially anything that has to do with the letter writer’s abusive stepfather that feels higher on the list of things that you would maybe want to have a serious conversation about potentially request a change in someone else’s behavior and possibly offer, like, a somewhat vulnerable disclosure.
Speaker A: And then we’ve got other stuff, additional relatives, things like, oh, I remember that you liked this kind of candy, or one time you ordered something expensive off the menu, maybe not realizing that I was strapped for cash.
Speaker A: And so I think it’s just going to be useful to you, letter writer, to kind of figure out how do I approach these different things with different tools and different weights.
Speaker A: Because you don’t want to be having the candy conversation with your grandma at the same level of intensity that you want to have the conversation about your abusive parent with your aunt, if that makes sense.
Speaker B: It makes complete sense.
Speaker B: And it sounds this word gets thrown around, but like, boundaries, like with the aunt, the higher level sort of things, the things that carry more weight to them.
Speaker B: And speaking of trying to contend with your reality, I think a simple like, I don’t remember it that way is a really good phrase to use letter writer, because at this point, you are an adult and you have the authority to kind of have your own say in your narrative.
Speaker B: And you were a child at the same time, too.
Speaker B: I think that’s really important to remember.
Speaker B: If your aunt or whomever is saying, I was strapped for cash, how could you pick the most expensive thing on the menu while I was a child?
Speaker B: I didn’t know there was no parameters set.
Speaker B: Like, oh, you could only pick below a certain budget.
Speaker B: And I just think having a little bit of compassion for yourself that you didn’t know that, and sort of extending that compassion or encouraging your family to extend that compassion towards your child self.
Speaker A: Yeah, and I think to that end, I want to stress two things, which can both be true, but might be in slightly productive tension with one another.
Speaker A: It’s both really possible that you want to start either sometimes gently, sometimes more sternly pushing back, or just disagreeing.
Speaker A: Not in a way that’s like lashing out or freaking out, but just sort of saying, like, I remember it differently, or I don’t love this story.
Speaker A: But in other ways, too, I think maybe in part because you’ve never really talked about this with the rest of your family.
Speaker A: It doesn’t sound like you’ve never objected to these stories or said, this is how they make me feel.
Speaker A: I do want to encourage you, letter writer, to differentiate between, well, this is how it makes me feel, versus I definitely know.
Speaker A: The point is, weren’t you silly or stupid or selfish?
Speaker A: And again, I don’t want to say it couldn’t ever be that you’ve been in these moments and I haven’t been.
Speaker A: So if you’re strongly getting a really pointed read, by all means, feel free to drop this particular piece of advice and don’t take it.
Speaker A: But I do wonder if a story like, oh, I remember when you were seven and you ordered a big steak when I didn’t have enough money isn’t wow, what a dummy you, the letter writer, was so much as just like isn’t this a funny story where I, as an adult, certainly wasn’t going to tell a kid, hey, I’m strapped for cash.
Speaker A: And it was just a sort of like, I’m fond of that moment, not because I thought that you looked foolish, but just because it reminded me of a time that we kind of had a wacky adventure and I was also nervous.
Speaker A: But I couldn’t tell you that I was nervous because I was supposed to be the adult.
Speaker A: So again, that doesn’t mean you have to like the story or that you shouldn’t say how it makes you feel, just that unless it’s about something pretty clear cut, it is possible, at least some of the time, that they are coming at this with good intentions.
Speaker A: And once they know you feel differently or that you want to share something else, they won’t just be driving that point home.
Speaker A: But I also am aware that I could maybe be shading into, I’m sure they mean well territory that is not necessarily going to be very helpful.
Speaker A: So I just think maybe sometimes you could even say like, gosh, I kind of like this story, but it kind of embarrasses me because I worry that it makes me sound really thoughtless and how did it make you feel?
Speaker A: Maybe that’s true, maybe it’s not.
Speaker A: But I think to bring it up for the first time in a spirit of both, let me share something a little bit about how this makes me feel.
Speaker A: But also I’m curious, what do you think about that?
Speaker A: Just because I don’t think you’ve had this conversation yet and so you can at least give them the chance to adjust to your new adult perspective and then if you share that and they just really dismiss it or they kind of ride roughshot over you, feel free to push back a little bit more.
Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I definitely want to honor the fact that the letter writer feels that there is some mal intent behind these comments.
Speaker B: And obviously we don’t know what’s going on in the family members minds.
Speaker B: And I think for me that’s the most difficult thing is we don’t know how the family members act if they kind of have some things going on where they do sort of lash out or I guess just what I mean to say is we don’t know the personalities of the family members.
Speaker A: Yes.
Speaker B: And if this is representative of a larger issue so I definitely want to honor how it makes them feel that they have this instinct that it’s a put down.
Speaker A: Yes.
Speaker B: And at the same time, I don’t know, I just get the sense that they have the power as an adult to reclaim the narrative now.
Speaker B: And if they want to say something like, oh, I guess that sounded like a silly thing for me to do as a child, but I was a kid.
Speaker B: I didn’t know any better.
Speaker B: Or this was what was going on for me internally.
Speaker B: If it was, maybe a bigger item would be like the stepdad, but a smaller item.
Speaker B: We don’t know what’s going on internally for them.
Speaker B: So I think just giving context to the situation and then sort of bringing it back to the present of like, I’m so glad as an adult I learned how to do better yeah.
Speaker A: And that’s a helpful way to move on, too, because I think I was spending a lot of time trying to queue up.
Speaker A: Here’s how I think you can handle the light stuff, but the light stuff’s not the biggest problem.
Speaker A: I think the light stuff will feel lighter once the letter writer has addressed the bigger stuff, even if it doesn’t go amazingly, just knowing, like, I said something, I let them know that this bothers me.
Speaker A: That’s something, not nothing.
Speaker A: Maybe a good moment to flip, too, because there are stories that the letter writer says that are genuinely mistaken, either because the relative is like, lying or because the letter writer doesn’t remember it accurately.
Speaker A: And in those moments, I think it makes a lot more sense for the letter writer to say, again, you say that normally you kind of retreat into yourself when that happens, and you’re really socially anxious, and they linger for a long time.
Speaker A: So I don’t want to say, like, hey, just start speaking up.
Speaker A: Just make an extemporaneous speech about your feelings when you’re already feeling vulnerable and misunderstood.
Speaker A: That’s easy, right?
Speaker A: But I wonder if it would be possible to say something like, yeah, I did used to get really upset about this.
Speaker A: I think I still do.
Speaker A: And if it’s possible sometimes to just say, yeah, this still hurts, or I still feel the same way, not in a way that’s like, snapping at them or like, you should have known, but just sharing that information of politely disagreeing.
Speaker A: I think that’s such a difficult skill, especially with relatives, and especially with relatives who are a generation older than you, and so you’re used to deferring to them and then add social anxiety on top of that.
Speaker A: It can sometimes feel like if I disagree with them, I’m disrespecting them, and I’m gunning for a fight, and we have to change each other’s mind by the end of the conversation.
Speaker A: But I wonder if it feels possible to just say, like, my goal would be to just calmly register, yeah, I still feel that way, and not to necessarily hash it all out in that moment, just, my goal is today I let them know that we aren’t on the exact same page, and that’s okay.
Speaker A: And then you can kind of think about if I want to have a bigger conversation later.
Speaker A: I can.
Speaker A: Again, if that feels like too much right now or you don’t want to wait until you’re in the moment, then I think my next advice would be speak to your aunt rather than waiting for her to do it again.
Speaker A: Does that seem reasonable?
Speaker A: I also want to stress if the idea of saying this in person feels like a lot.
Speaker A: I think this could possibly be a phone call or maybe even an email.
Speaker A: But if it were an email, I would want to really stress certain ways of writing it so that the letter writer was seeking to start from a place of peacefulness and neutrality and withholding necessarily more intense feelings just so you have a place to go to, if that makes sense.
Speaker B: I find a very helpful formula when having difficult conversations and requesting a behavior change is I feel x about something you did y, how can we work together to ABC resolution?
Speaker B: And I think going into any difficult conversation with a script ahead of time is incredibly useful.
Speaker B: Letter writer.
Speaker B: So, yeah, I would agree.
Speaker B: I would definitely encourage you to have a conversation with your aunt about these more sensitive topics.
Speaker B: I feel sort of put down when you tell embarrassing stories about me from my childhood.
Speaker B: How can we work together to reminisce in a more positive way?
Speaker A: Yeah, and yeah, to be clear letter Writer that makes so much sense.
Speaker A: Again, I don’t talk to any of my relatives anymore, but I definitely remember that feeling of sort of being split in between, wow, this older relative is remembering something about my childhood that they clearly feel fondness towards and I don’t want to get in the way of that.
Speaker A: But it also makes me feel really sensitive to have my sensitivity acknowledged in this way.
Speaker A: That does feel a little condescending, sometimes more than a little condescending.
Speaker A: And then I get anxious about seeming sensitive, so I don’t say anything and therefore it becomes more sensitive.
Speaker A: I can deeply sympathize with that cycle.
Speaker B: So if putting yourself out in that vulnerable sort of way doesn’t seem like the best option for you because I relate as well, it really sucks to put yourself out there and kind of ask for something different and try and go about it in a very mature sort of way.
Speaker B: And it just kind of has the opposite effect because you need to know your audience and speaking to older populations, but then maybe just kind of having a stronger backbone is the option and that can just take practice and time.
Speaker B: And setting a boundary for the first time is scary.
Speaker B: The quote like speak up even if your voice shakes, sort of like it is really hard.
Speaker B: Yeah, and I think I can speak for Danny that we feel for you and try following scripts and things like that and just practicing.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker A: And my sort of last suggestion would be sometimes it helps to name the things you’re most afraid of.
Speaker A: And so whether this is a conversation you’re having one on one or in a group setting, whether this is about one of the bigger issues or one of the more minor ones, I think it might potentially help to start with.
Speaker A: I feel a little self conscious bringing this up and I’m a little worried that you’ll feel like I’m trying to ruin your reminiscing and I don’t want to do that.
Speaker A: And that can maybe take some of the sting out of that fear.
Speaker A: So you can just say, I just want to tell you I do feel sensitively about this, and I hope you will treat that with sensitivity.
Speaker A: My worry is that if I say I’m sensitive, then the conversation will just become you need to become less sensitive.
Speaker A: And what I’d really like is for you to tell me a little bit more about what you’re feeling when you tell these stories, listen to me tell you how they make me feel.
Speaker A: I really hope you don’t think I’m saying, never discuss my younger days ever again, or Every time you do this, it’s the worst.
Speaker A: I think finding a way to tell someone you’d like them to change something before it gets to an unbearable level is really challenging.
Speaker A: And I want this letter writer to feel like that’s going to be possible.
Speaker A: And there are ways to communicate that in affection and warmth, but also like, but this is beginning to get to me, and I would love to meet me in the middle, if you can.
Speaker A: And it’s my hope that once you do begin sharing this with them, that they will.
Speaker A: Now, since it sounds like you haven’t really had these conversations before, if you do say these things to your aunt and your other relatives and everybody just kind of doubles down and is like, now we’re going to really point out your sensitivity.
Speaker A: Now we’re going to bring up these stories twice as often.
Speaker A: That would change the situation for me.
Speaker A: And at that point, I would encourage you to back off from some of those gatherings, get some outside support, and figure out either, do I want to just see a little bit less of them, or do I want to find a different way of being a little bit more insistent that they stop.
Speaker A: I hope they don’t do that.
Speaker A: But in case there are times when a group treats somebody saying, I actually am sensitive, this does kind of hurt my feelings.
Speaker A: I’d like you to stop.
Speaker A: And rather than saying, okay, we’ll do that, the group dynamic can kind of turn into ha ha, and I hope that’s not what happens here, but if it does, I just want to let her edge know, you don’t have to deal with that.
Speaker A: That would not be okay.
Speaker A: That would not be something that I would encourage you to try to understand harder.
Speaker A: Then I would say they’re being cruel.
Speaker B: I really like what you said about being curious about the aunt’s experience and where she’s coming from with that stuff.
Speaker B: Because I think maybe one way to set yourself up for success and potentially avoid the scenario that you just described, Daniel, would be to focus on the positive in the sense of, like, I love when we reminisce together.
Speaker B: Like, it makes me feel close to you, and I love talking about our shared time together.
Speaker B: We live far apart.
Speaker B: We don’t get this time anymore.
Speaker B: As an example, like, that sort of thing, just trying to relate to one of the many reasons why your aunt might be sharing these stories in such a great volume.
Speaker B: Yeah, I feel that people tend to get defensive when they feel that they’re being misunderstood, like their best intentions are being misunderstood.
Speaker B: We can’t predict how your aunt is going to react, but I think starting from a place of maturity and connection is always a great first step.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker A: And you know what?
Speaker A: As we reach the end of this, I think I kind of want to take another pass at my beginning, which is I wonder if what’s undergirding all of this is how your family reacted to your abusive stepfather.
Speaker A: All I know is that once or twice the aunt has brought up the abusive stepfather in a way that, to me, sounds pretty dismissive, or at best, a really clumsy way of trying to gauge the letter writer’s feelings.
Speaker A: And so I wonder if part of why the letter writer feels sensitive about all of this is, like, when your stepfather was abusing you, did anyone else in the family know at the time?
Speaker A: And if so, did they kind of look the other way?
Speaker A: Did they minimize it?
Speaker A: Did they fail to help you?
Speaker A: Because if that’s the context, then that would both explain a lot about why this feels really sensitive and would put this in a more troubling light in terms of everyone talking about your childhood generally, as if you were very, very sensitive, when, in fact, what was going on was you were being abused and they weren’t helping you.
Speaker B: Right, I completely agree.
Speaker B: I think adding context to the situation and this is definitely a heavier one of like, this is what was going on.
Speaker B: For me, I think it opens up the opportunity to have potentially even more healing conversations about a really difficult topic.
Speaker A: Even if you just say to your aunt, you’ve mentioned this twice, and I just actually want to go back to it and say, yes, I was sensitive and upset about those things, and I was right to be, and my stepfather was abusing me.
Speaker A: Not necessarily even because you want or expect her to have a particular response to that, just for your own sake of saying it out loud to her, like, yeah, and I stand by it, and I was being abused, and that wasn’t okay.
Speaker A: And just kind of sorry if that sounds cheesy, but standing in your truth a little bit, and if she flails, she flails.
Speaker A: If she gets on board, great, and she corrects herself and apologizes and asks how you’re doing and how she can try to make it up to you, fantastic.
Speaker A: But sometimes it just feels really useful to start with naming what happened and not avoiding it.
Speaker A: And that might potentially just be a good way to begin.
Speaker B: It might not even need to be like, hey, you said this thing, and I just wanted to add more context to it.
Speaker B: It could be as simple as, like, hey, you said this thing, and it really reminded me of what I was going through at this time.
Speaker B: Maybe just asking, could you hold space for me while I explore these feelings?
Speaker B: Because the memory that you brought up brought something up in me that I’d like to continue to explore.
Speaker B: Like, there was a lot more going on below the surface.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker A: But yeah.
Speaker A: I hope this goes well for you.
Speaker A: It seems to me like a possibility here that, again, not that all of these stories or comments are coming out of a concerted United effort to remake the past, but it does seem possible to me that part of what these jokes are trying to accomplish is retelling the story.
Speaker A: So it’s not like the letter writer was abused by the stepfather, and the rest of us maybe feel guilty about not being able again, I’m not even assuming they all did something really wrong, but we wish we’d known more.
Speaker A: We wish we’d been able to help.
Speaker A: We feel guilty, and people don’t like to feel guilty.
Speaker A: And so possibly even unconsciously, the sort of collective story is actually, oh, letter writer is pretty sensitive, kind of a weird kid.
Speaker A: And that’s kind of an easier story than, I loved this kid, and I failed to protect them.
Speaker A: And so I wonder if that’s the possibility.
Speaker A: Again, I don’t want to go too far off in the field of speculation, but I think I’ll just end with, this makes sense to me.
Speaker A: I think your sensitivity is understandable here.
Speaker A: Sensitive is not a dirty word.
Speaker A: Sometimes it can really help to just own, like, yes, I’m sensitive, because then you let go of that sort of, I’ve got to seem together.
Speaker A: I cannot cry or look flustered.
Speaker A: That would be the one thing that would make this all a disaster.
Speaker A: And you have a right to object to or add your own context to or push back against these ideas about your childhood.
Speaker A: And you can do that without immediately going to ten on a scale of one to ten.
Speaker B: Right.
Speaker A: And I hope you’re also able to get additional support about having dealt with an abusive childhood from other people outside of this family, not as a replacement for necessarily, but in addition to do you have any sort of final thoughts on this one, or do you want to move on to our next one?
Speaker B: Yeah, I think my last thought would just be kind of reiterating what you said and sharing that.
Speaker B: I think this is an opportunity for healing.
Speaker B: I think the point about your stepdad, I think that it could be an opportunity to just have deeper conversations, and you can just kind of lean into that.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker A: And good luck.
Speaker A: I hope that this goes well.
Speaker A: You so our second letter is sort of charming.
Speaker A: I feel like the letter writer is in a better position than they realize, but we’ll see.
Speaker A: The subject is, when will we have sex robots?
Speaker A: Not to front load this, but I’m pretty sure we do kind of 100%.
Speaker A: I think it was a joke, obviously.
Speaker A: I don’t think the letter writer is actually going to be like, oh, great, there’s sex robots.
Speaker A: I’ll dump this guy and just do that because there’s still a few differences between a human being and even the sexiest robot.
Speaker A: Not that one is better than the other.
Speaker A: I mean, people are better than robots.
Speaker A: I feel comfortable with that.
Speaker B: The future is here.
Speaker B: We have sex robots now.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker A: I ended an 18 year marriage after more than two years of separation.
Speaker A: We weren’t intimate by the end of our marriage, and I spent years grieving and had no sexual desire.
Speaker A: When my libido eventually returned, I joined a dating app and said in my profile that I didn’t want a relationship but did want to explore sex.
Speaker A: I have found a few partners, mostly in the ethical non monogamy space.
Speaker A: One man I connected with is single, and he invited me to spend time with his friends.
Speaker A: I agreed.
Speaker A: We’ve had a few really magical dates, and when we kiss, it’s electric.
Speaker A: The relationship turned romantic.
Speaker A: Now he says he loves me and is turned on by me being with other lovers.
Speaker A: I don’t love him and told him that.
Speaker A: But I would like to continue to explore our relationship should I stop seeing him since I want to keep my lovers.
Speaker A: Also, my therapist suggested that maybe I asked for a sex only relationship because I didn’t believe anyone would love me besides my ex husband.
Speaker A: I don’t want to lead him on, but I don’t want to give up my lovers.
Speaker A: Also, it feels really nice to be pursued.
Speaker A: I really enjoy him, and I feel a little bit of shame to say I’m seeing three different men this week.
Speaker A: But for safety, I also know that disclosure is key.
Speaker A: If he is okay with multiple partners, can I ethically ride it out?
Speaker A: I almost thought at first that there had been a typo because the thing that the guy said was, I’m turned on by your having other lovers.
Speaker A: And then the letter writer’s question was, should I stop seeing him since I want to keep my lovers?
Speaker A: And so I thought maybe they just meant to write off instead of turned on.
Speaker A: And I missed it.
Speaker A: But then that last sentence put me back in a state of confusion because if he’s okay with multiple partners, can I ethically write it out?
Speaker A: Like yes?
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker A: I mean, I think if anything, the tension here is he said, I love you, I don’t love him.
Speaker A: And I told him and that makes me feel a little guilty.
Speaker A: Is that actually okay?
Speaker A: Which we can totally get into.
Speaker A: But did you have a similar confusion about the number of lovers?
Speaker B: I did.
Speaker B: I think that this letter focuses on two things.
Speaker B: One is the romance aspect.
Speaker B: The other is the shame aspect.
Speaker B: It really seems and it’s not like this letter writer is saying otherwise, but it really seems like the shame is coming from the letter writer themselves and it’s not imposed by the partner.
Speaker B: And so I really think that this person, whether or not they ever intended to enter into an ethically, non monogamous relationship, they, colloquially speaking, are sleeping around and they haven’t built a relationship with that kind of practice, it seems like.
Speaker B: I don’t know if that makes sense, but it takes a lot of emotional maturity to have multiple partners.
Speaker B: And I think that the letter writer is having a little bit of difficulty navigating the one thing that they had been comfortable with, which is sleeping around with something new, which is having romantic feelings and balancing those two things.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker A: And I was wondering, when we kiss, it’s electric.
Speaker A: We’ve had magical dates, the relationship turned romantic.
Speaker A: Again, I can understand all those things can be true and you’re not in love with someone, but it did seem like those things were slightly intention with each other.
Speaker A: Right.
Speaker A: It wasn’t just like, we have good sex, but he loves me and I don’t care.
Speaker A: It’s more like we both care for each other, but he feels like he’s fallen in love and I don’t.
Speaker A: And so it doesn’t mean there’s no romance.
Speaker A: It doesn’t mean that I’m not excited and infatuated, but I am not in love with him in the way that he is with me, which I think is fine and understandable.
Speaker A: And given that you both have been honest about that and he seemed to be okay with it, letter writer, I do want to encourage you to take him at his word.
Speaker A: And unless or until he gives you reason to believe otherwise, trust that he’s okay.
Speaker A: Not everybody feels the exact same thing at the exact same time.
Speaker A: And there are certainly people who are like, listen, as long as you’re happy seeing me and you’re still having roughly as good a time as I am on these dates, I’m not going to be troubled by the fact that I have stronger feelings than you do.
Speaker A: But I also just want to acknowledge, it sounds like you were in a very, very long term marriage that involved a lot of grief, a lot of sexlessness for a long time.
Speaker A: And so I imagine part of what just might be coming up now is like, wow, now I’m spoiled for choice.
Speaker A: I was sort of in a desert before and now it’s a beautiful rainforest and that can be both really great and also feel daunting and bring up questions of, like, do I really deserve all of this?
Speaker A: Or isn’t this going to be too much to handle?
Speaker A: Or wouldn’t it be easier if I just had, like, one small tree, like a sort of desert garden with some nice rocks arranged over here and like, a hardy spruce.
Speaker B: Quote?
Speaker B: Also, my therapist suggested that maybe I asked for a sex only relationship because I didn’t believe anyone would love me besides my ex husband.
Speaker B: I mean, your therapist kind of acknowledged why you may not be seeking romance, and I don’t think you sought romance with this one partner, but it seems like it’s kind of started to percolate and I don’t know, I think the thing with romance is, like, if you have any inkling, then you explore it.
Speaker B: Sure, if it’s safe and healthy and everything like that.
Speaker B: Not always, but it seems like this person wants to explore it.
Speaker B: And no magical dates and electricity when you kiss does not mean romance per se, but it’s pretty nice.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker B: And it’s just like it’s a nice thing that’s in your life and he likes you sleeping around.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker A: To me, that feels like if you just need permission to say, like, can this be real?
Speaker A: Yes, it can, and it can be so much fun, and I hope you have a delightful time.
Speaker A: I don’t have a strong read on how you felt about your therapist suggestion letter Writer and it felt like you kind of included it almost as just sort of like I’m still not quite sure what to make of it.
Speaker A: So tell me if you have any thoughts there.
Speaker A: But I guess letter writer, I would just encourage you.
Speaker A: I don’t know, check your gut.
Speaker A: Sometimes therapists just say things and you get to gauge whether or not that doesn’t mean that the therapist is more of an authority about your feelings.
Speaker A: It could be true, or it could just be true that you were like, you know what?
Speaker A: After 18 years of marriage.
Speaker A: It’s not that I just want to go be a sex robot myself, but I want to prioritize meeting new people, trying new things, making myself available for multiple options and not getting locked in immediately into a relationship.
Speaker A: And also potentially seeing if I can experience romance and infatuation outside of the lens of exclusivity and monogamy, which is not the same as, like, I know I’m going to want to be non monogamous or polyamorous forever and ever.
Speaker A: Just like I really want to give this a go.
Speaker A: I want to spend some time meeting and falling for and dating multiple people, and I think that’s really great.
Speaker A: So I don’t know, maybe I guess I would just say, does it really matter, like, whether you didn’t believe anyone would love you besides your ex husband or not?
Speaker A: You’re still allowed to ask for sex only, and you’re still allowed to reevaluate when you feel like it.
Speaker A: But basically, if you’re feeling good, what’s wrong with that?
Speaker A: I don’t know.
Speaker A: It feels a little pat to me to say, like, oh, you didn’t really mean it when you asked for sex.
Speaker A: Really?
Speaker A: Because she just described the end of a sexless marriage that was pretty painful and enjoying sex.
Speaker A: So is it really rocket science to think she actually did mean it when she said she’s looking for sex.
Speaker A: I don’t know.
Speaker A: To me, that’s not the same thing as, like, I believe no one will ever love me again so much as just like, I’m ready for a lot of sex right now.
Speaker B: And I mean, this might be outside of the scope of this letter, but are you curious about romance?
Speaker B: Is it something that you feel like in your moving on from your marriage that you need to explore, that you have any interest in exploring?
Speaker B: If you don’t, that’s totally fine.
Speaker B: But I’d be curious if you’d be open to going on dates that were more romantic in nature.
Speaker B: That’s a conversation to have with this guy.
Speaker B: Maybe you’re not interested in that at all, but I think if you’re worried about your therapist comment, it might be worth something to explore.
Speaker B: It might be something worth exploring, rather.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker A: And I would just say, like, enjoy the feeling of being pursued.
Speaker A: Enjoy this new relationship.
Speaker A: Enjoy your other lovers.
Speaker A: I’m glad you only feel a little bit of shame saying, I’m seeing three different men this week, because a little bit of shame could sometimes be very hot.
Speaker A: Too much can be overwhelming, but a little bit is fun.
Speaker A: It makes you feel a little dangerous, and I guess I would just say for safety.
Speaker A: I know disclosure is key.
Speaker A: Sure.
Speaker A: It’s great if you’re seeing multiple people.
Speaker A: Great to let your partners know, have basic talks about safe sex.
Speaker A: That said, it’s also up to you.
Speaker A: Like, it’s nice that he finds it hot that you’re seeing multiple guys, but you don’t have to list every guy you’re going out with every week.
Speaker A: That is not the requisite disclosure to do this ethically, you do not have to list every date you’re going on.
Speaker A: So if part of you just feels like, I feel a little uncomfortable describing how many guys I’m going out with this week, but he thinks it’s sexy, so I guess I got to just tell him.
Speaker A: You don’t have to.
Speaker A: It’s nice that he finds it hot, and if you find out you could eventually find it hot too, then by all means, have a blast.
Speaker A: But if you simply experience him finding it hot as a bonus and it doesn’t really do anything for you, you do not have to just tell him every week who else you’re seeing.
Speaker B: Right.
Speaker A: He gets the gist.
Speaker A: That’s what he needs is the gist.
Speaker A: The gist is I have other partners.
Speaker A: We should incorporate that into whatever safe sex practices it is that we do well.
Speaker B: Okay, so two things.
Speaker B: One just dawned on me.
Speaker B: The letter writer did say, like, I like being pursued, which has a little bit I mean, it doesn’t have to have a romantic connotation to it.
Speaker B: It can have just purely sexual connotation to it.
Speaker B: But I don’t really know where I’m going with that.
Speaker B: But I just think that’s also something to explore.
Speaker B: I just think that the letter writer is seeing boxes that they need to put themselves in and they have kind of an amazing situation that they should cherish revel in that rocks and the phrase like, can I ethically ride it out?
Speaker A: It’s just like I mean, yes, do ride it out.
Speaker B: Yeah, if you’re riding it out just in a kind of like I’m not going to pursue things further.
Speaker B: I’m not going to put in that much effort.
Speaker B: I’m just going to kind of hang out and enjoy myself with where we are now and see what happens.
Speaker B: Yeah, 100% you can see what happens.
Speaker A: I think that’s good to sort of identify as like a question with even more sort of underlying questions, which is I think essentially that last question is sort of like, am I getting away with something that I really shouldn’t be?
Speaker A: Am I cruising for a bruising?
Speaker A: Is this somehow connected with my therapist’s concern that I’m afraid I can’t really find love?
Speaker A: Am I kidding myself if I think I can do this and have a good time?
Speaker A: I don’t think that you are letter writer.
Speaker A: I think you’ve been upfront from the beginning with everyone you’ve been seeing about what you’re looking for.
Speaker A: You’ve had honest conversations with this new lover about sort of what works for you both and what limits you might have and you’re having a good time and enjoying being pursued and having sex.
Speaker A: All of those are good things.
Speaker A: I don’t believe that this means you’re being overly greedy or getting away with too much or eventually you’re going to have to stop having so much fun.
Speaker A: I think you can have a lot of fun.
Speaker A: And to me, you’re ticking all the boxes of honesty, trying to know yourself to the best of your ability.
Speaker A: And if eventually you do meet someone and this doesn’t work for them, as long as you’re honest, even if you part ways over it, I don’t want you to feel like that means you were doing something wrong.
Speaker A: The goal of dating is to figure out where your compatibilities lie and to find out what compromises and what relationships are possible.
Speaker A: And sometimes that means you find out somebody you really like, you lose compatibility and that can be sad.
Speaker A: And sometimes that feels like, oh, this must mean that honesty was a mistake or I was doing the wrong thing.
Speaker A: And it’s like, no, sometimes just dating you meet someone you really like and you want it to work out and it doesn’t.
Speaker A: And it’s so much better to be honest and suffer an honest loss than it is to pretend like, no, we can make something totally opposite work.
Speaker A: So I guess I just want to say all this in case one of the people you go out with eventually is like, oh, I hate this.
Speaker A: And you sort of feel like, well, maybe I can, maybe I’m doing something wrong, right?
Speaker A: If I like you and you don’t like this, then I must be doing something wrong, as opposed to some people just like really incompatible things.
Speaker B: I think maybe something preemptive to do might be to have a conversation with the partner about what ethical non monogamy means to them, or whatever you want to call it.
Speaker A: I want to stress, too, it’s fine that they want to call it that.
Speaker A: I think that the name is a little goofy, but also you don’t have to pick a label for it.
Speaker A: You can just say, like, I like to date more than one person, and here’s what I’m available for.
Speaker A: So, I mean, again, if an identity or a term works for you, amazing, but don’t feel like you’re obligated to pick one up.
Speaker B: I’m just getting at, like, this partner likes romance that we don’t need to question, but it’s like, I don’t want to play a big game of what ifs, but it’s like, okay, what if the letter writer eventually does find somebody that they’re romantically interested in?
Speaker B: Like, the partner likes that they’re sexually involved with other people, but how much will they like if they’re romantically involved with someone else?
Speaker B: And I think that that’s a conversation to have.
Speaker A: Yeah, and I think, too, maybe the sort of underlying question there could be, this is working for now, but I anticipate the possibility that if, like, six months from now, he’s still in love with me and I’m not in love with him, I’m going to feel an internal sense of pressure.
Speaker A: And to that I would just say, keep checking in about that, and it would be okay if at some point you just felt like, that mismatch now doesn’t work for me.
Speaker A: Even if he’s like, I’m fine.
Speaker A: You don’t ever have to love me.
Speaker A: I just want you to know you’re allowed to be uncomfortable with something that somebody else is comfortable with.
Speaker A: And so if at some point you’re like, you know what?
Speaker A: This has been really fun, but even though you say you’re cool with it, I’m not cool with this mismatch in feelings or intensity, that would be fine too.
Speaker A: I could really under it’s.
Speaker A: The flip side of Bonnie Ray’s classic I Can’t Make You Love Me, which is like, sometimes it feels uncomfortable if you’re in a relationship with somebody who wants more or feels more intensely than you do, and they may not be doing anything wrong.
Speaker A: They may be perfectly honest and available, but it’s just like, I don’t like this.
Speaker A: I’m not having a good time, and I’m not having a good time is a great reason to stop seeing someone.
Speaker A: Even if you think they’re a cool person or a good person, I think.
Speaker B: That’S a great place to end, is just kind of setting a little bit of a check in for yourself, having that transparent conversation with your partner.
Speaker B: Like, what if the tides were to kind of turn and I did have a romantic interest?
Speaker B: Yeah, I think that’s great.
Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker A: Have fun, have sex, enjoy yourself.
Speaker A: Be honest, celebrate, have a great time.
Speaker B: Amen.
Speaker A: And on that note, I think we’ve been as helpful as we can to the people.
Speaker A: And so I thank you all, people, for sharing your stories with us because they enabled us to have this conversation today.
Speaker A: And Felicia, thank you so much for bringing your thoughts to bear.
Speaker A: I feel like you were, frankly, more than just a decorative pillow.
Speaker A: You were a useful pillow.
Speaker A: You were a load bearing pillow that was also decorative.
Speaker B: If I could be a tempur pedic, Danny, then you’ve made my dreams come true.
Speaker A: It’s done.
Speaker A: It’s already done.
Speaker A: You’re the tempur pedic of guests, and I hope that we get to have you back sometime really soon.
Speaker B: Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker A: Amazing.
Speaker A: Thanks for joining us on Big Mood, Little Mood.
Speaker A: With me, danny Lavery.
Speaker A: Our producer is Phil Serkis, who also composed our theme music.
Speaker A: Don’t miss an episode of the show head to Slate.com slash Mood to sign up to subscribe or hit the subscribe button on whatever platform you’re using right now.
Speaker B: Thanks.
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Speaker A: If you’d like me to read your letter on the show, maybe you need a little advice.
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Speaker A: I think a lot of the romantic problems that come into this column can stem from people breaking up with someone and then feeling like they’re not allowed to make it stick.
Speaker A: But you’re really just allowed to stop being in a relationship with someone and that doesn’t mean and then block their number immediately and don’t have even a single conversation.
Speaker A: But also, it kind of does.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: You can be like, there is nothing more here.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker A: And even if they don’t agree and they don’t like it and they think you should, they don’t get a vote.
Speaker A: You don’t have to make it a unanimous decision to break up.
Speaker A: And even if they really think you shouldn’t do it, you are still allowed to say, no, we don’t talk anymore.
Speaker A: I want you to get love, affection, support, friendship, and all those good things in life from other people.
Speaker A: And the good news is, the world is so full of people who can do that.
Speaker A: To listen to the rest of that conversation, join Slate Plus now@slate.com mood.
