Playdate Etiquette Edition
S1: This ad free podcast is part of your slate plus membership. Hey, everyone, welcome to mom and dad are fighting Slade’s parenting podcast for Thursday, September 2nd, the play day Etiquette Edition. I’m Amy Nursemaid. I am also very, very tired because I have a two month old. His name is Moussa
S2: and he’s the cutest. I’m Elizabeth New camp. I write the homeschooling family travel blog Dutch Dutch Goose, and I’m the mom to three little Henry, who’s nine, Oliver, who’s seven, and Teddy, who’s four. And we live in Colorado Springs, Colorado.
S1: And Jamila is out today. But we’re going to do it justice, I promise, unless we get interrupted by one of our babies. And then we have to run around and it can be a whole ordeal and then we’ll fix them in editing. And so on today’s show, we’re answering a listener question from a parent who has some questions on playdate. Etiquette. What is proper play day? Etiquette. And what do you do? What other parents don’t follow it? Then we get some advice to a listener who is trying to navigate differing religious beliefs of another family. How can she teach her 12 year old son to be more accepting of other people’s views when he’s quite set in his own eyes? Plus, we’re talking about the concept of free range children, what are free range children and how do we feel about letting our children gain certain forms of independence at a younger age? But first, we’re going to kick off the show with some triumphs and failures. Elizabeth, do you have any triumphs or fails this week?
S2: Yeah, so I’m going to claim a triumph at the end to triumph. I mean, it’s sort of a fail that we turn into a triumph, but aren’t all relatable. Yeah, totally
S1: understandable.
S2: So over the summer, one of the things on my list I had to do with the kids was that I really wanted to take them to a baseball game. I loved watching baseball, and we just hadn’t really brought the kids. And because we sort of had these formidable hitters in the Netherlands, they’re confused about a lot of sports. Like one time at gymnastics, Henry was asked who his favorite football team was, and he said, we root for the Netherlands because he thought he thought they meant soccer. So when we got here, I thought, well, we’ll go to a Colorado Rockies game. Great. Then I discover the tickets are like a million dollars and there’s five of us. And I wanted us all to go and buy it. Colorado Springs has a baseball team that’s like Berlo Minor League. It’s called Premier League, and it’s like associated with the MLB. I don’t know how familiar you guys are with baseball, but we kept saying they have these military appreciation nights where the tickets are like basically free, like they’re very cheap. I thought, this is great. We’ll go. If the kids hated, who cares? But we kept kind of like putting it off like something else would come up or the weather would be bad. So there’s like two games left and so on. Last Thursday, we were just like, we don’t care. We’re going. So we get every we like have dinner. We get everybody into the car. We get there, we get our tickets, we walk in. There’s like all they’re giving away, free chick filet. So there was. Yes, I know. They’re like there’s like wheels. You can spin and win, you know, like dumb little prizes. My kids think this is like the best thing. And we we take our seats and we’re watching some baseball. And then all of a sudden it plays take me out to the ballgame. And everyone’s like standing up. And I’m like, well, this is weird. They usually do this in the seventh inning. So it was the seventh inning, you guys. I brought my kids to the tail end of a not even really baseball league baseball game. But here’s the thing. It was perfect. It was perfect. The kids can basically tolerate about four or five minutes. We had three innings. Henry got a I won’t say he caught a foul ball like it went off. And one of the like people on the field went and got it and threw it to him. And he just thought that was like the most amazing thing in the world. They had a great experience. They want to go back, which is kind of like the whole goal of taking them. It feels incredibly Covid safe because there’s like 200 people in this huge stadium.
S1: Yeah, I
S2: guess they used to have a minor league team and now they have this team. And the mascot is called Toastie. They’re called the Rocky Mountain. Vibe’s is the name of the team, and they’re bad guys.
S1: It’s similar. Why does that name have so much sway? I know,
S2: right? It’s a flaming some more. It was the whole experience was amazing. I feel like what a win. Even though it could have been like, oh, you know, a loss showing up at the end of a game. But it was it was so great. And I’m excited that they want to go back. And we’re definitely going to maybe catch this week’s game. But otherwise we’ll have to pick it up next year.
S1: That’d be sick if you guys can be hardcore fans and show up with their faces painted.
S2: Eventually, hardcore Rocky Mountain Vibes fans
S1: go toasty
S2: toasty. OK, so how about you in the land of in the land of babies, are we triumph or fail?
S1: So everything feels like it’s both a triumph and a fail. And when we fail, it becomes a triumph and vice versa. So something really amazing happened the other day. Somebody who’s a listener on this show actually reached out on Twitter and said, hey, you’re in Newark, New Jersey. I’m in Newark, New Jersey. We should. We parent friends. Oh, my gosh. And I’m like, yes, this is a dream come true. None of my friends have babies. I need more parents in my life. So we linked up at the local park. It was a lot of fun. Turns out we’d known each other for years from back in college. It was amazing. I had a lot of fun. I hope she’s listening right now. Shout out to you, Terry. And we met her baby. Oh, my God. So, so, so cute. It’s insane. All this was the triumph, right? Meeting up with some locals, walking distance. It was a lot of fun. And then the film, we picked up the baby to like kind of pull them out of the stroller to give him some air. And we see that he’s sitting in just like a puddle of poop. And we’re like, oh, now he chooses to let it all out. Right. So we pull him out. I go to reach for the diaper bag and it’s not there. The diaper bag wasn’t there. We forgot it at home. Could you imagine? But you’re at least you’re at
S2: a park, right? There are other parents.
S1: I almost consider just wiping him in the grass and just dragging him around. But it was a fail because I was just trying to be the good parent and show off to these other parents that I was meeting for the first time. I want them to think I’m responsible. You know, one day I hope to so that they could think of me as, you know, somebody could drop their kids off to go play and we could do the same. And we can depend on each other in certain ways. And I was just like, no, no, no. Where is the diaper bag? Where’s the diaper bag? So they’re babies, nine months old, minus two months old. They were so polite. They had all these extra wipes. They were like the team of parents. And they just brought out this huge soft pillow that we put on the park bench so we can change them. And it was hilarious. They gave us one of their babies diapers, which a nine month old and a two month old. There’s a big difference. So this poor kid looked like he was Steve Urkel, where it went all the way up to his nipples and all the way up his back. It was the funniest thing. So at that point, after we got it all cleaned, after we got them all nice and happy and dry, it turned from a female into a huge win.
S2: So so I’m a huge believer that these moments are friendship builders. Like, I think that the way you really build friendships is like showing showing your weakness and asking for help. So I think that even though it felt like a loss, what you did was you like even built this friendship more because you had to ask for help and they were able to help you. And that endears people to each other.
S1: Yeah. No, I mean, we’ve been texting each other nonstop, just like sending each other pictures of our babies and and things that I almost feel embarrassed to do with other friends that don’t have babies. Because, you know, it’s like the stereotype people get so annoyed and people send baby pictures unsolicited. So it’s cool that had these people in our lives who get it.
S2: You know, I love that the friends that I make, because we were actually in Colorado Springs when I had well, I had had Henry in California, and then we moved here and he was like six or eight weeks old or so removed. And so like our first baby friends, like friends with babies were here. And I feel such a bond to them, even though I haven’t see it. Like we moved away and we kept, you know, in contact with a couple of them. But now that I’m back and I like see them, it is such a bond because we went through this whole first baby thing together. And that’s the kind of stuff that happens. You know, like we all can remember our kids just like pooping and potty training and just all of that together. And it feels like such a bonding experience. I love that. You’re like making fresh baby family friends to add to your collection of like different friends for different things. I think it’s so great.
S1: It probably wouldn’t have happened if not for mom and dad are fighting. So this is this is all becoming like a very big family event for me now, doing the show every week. And when Dan comes back, I’m going to have to I might have to argue with him a little bit to see if he doesn’t need to go on book, leave a little bit longer.
S2: I know. I’ve been so amazed, you know, when I was sharing about just getting all of our special education paperwork done and all of that, which, you know, eventually I’ll follow up. We’re still kind of in the middle of that. But the number of listeners who, like, reached out there was even someone who reached out because her mother is a special needs pediatrician here in Colorado Springs. And just like those kind of things, people that had experience with all this, I just feel like what an amazing, amazing group. And I love that they reached out to you to like have a new baby friend. And I am so thankful for the people who had reached out to me about all this stuff. Like it’s just really like I always hope that we’re kind of saying like the parenting journey is really hard and we have to do it together. And so it does feel nice. You know, we don’t all do it the same. Which what fun would that be if we all did the same thing?
S1: Oh, man. Yeah, I love I love the listeners so much. And we want them to to reach out to us more and let us know what they’re doing and what are they failing at and all these questions. They actually are very validating because every week go through a ton of these questions. But just reading them is really therapeutic. And I want more people to to share it, because you never know. You never know what else somebody else is going through.
S2: I agree. I also love when we get to just read through them all and just it feels so like we’re not alone.
S1: OK, on to our first listener question. It’s being read, as always, by the fabulous Shasha Linode.
S3: Hi, mom and dad. I’d like to talk about playdate Etiquette. I always thought if someone invites my kid to their home for a playdate, then we invite them to our house for the next one. Right. I am an introvert with two extroverted daughters. I’m pushed outside of my comfort zone every time they request a playdate. But I do it for them because it makes them happy. So the playdate comes, the friend comes over, the kids play. Everyone has fun and the kid goes home. But I never hear from their parent again. What’s up with this? My kids are friendly. I monitor the play dates and everything seems fine. No arguments, and they seem to leave happy. But I keep getting ghosted by other parents and I bring my own insecurities into this thinking that I or we did something wrong. Maybe I’m being too sensitive, but my feelings are kind of hurt. What do you think?
S2: OK, so I am positive that Emily Post would say that you are to return an invitation for a play date, that if you are invited over, that you should return the invitation. That being said, I don’t think you should ever invite kids over for a playdate in hopes that your kids will get invited because you don’t know anyone else’s situation. You do not know what their home life is like. You do not know what what is going on with the parents schedule. You don’t know any of that. So I always think like when I’m trying to orchestrate play dates. OK, can I manage this? And is this something I want to do? Because honestly, sometimes the play dates are great, like my kids play better. When the play date people are here then. Then when we’re like alone, like they have to have more snacks. Right. But they’re sort of go play on their own. I don’t have to do as much interacting with them. So it’s really great. And I try to have that on on my schedule. I sense here, though, like that the personal thing, like feeling ghosted by other parents. The thing is, you have to invest time in the parents, too. And especially when I’m having first new play dates, I will often now again, I mean, with Covid, you have to kind of gauge this how you’re doing all this. I don’t know how you’re if you’re in a pot or what the situation is, maybe you need to be meeting outside of the park. I think, one, you can have kind of like a joint playdate, like we’d love to meet you at a park and, you know, show up with coffee or everybody pick up coffee, whatever, so that you get some time with the parents. Because I think that is if that is a big part of kind of that bonding. Now, that doesn’t mean that you need to make this person your best friend. But I think having kids over for a playdate is a little bit of relationship building, like, do I trust you with my kids? Do you trust me with your kids like all of that and getting to kind of read read them out like, hey, we, you know, can’t have people over for playdates because, you know, my mother lives there and she has dementia or whatever the situation is that they can share. And you could say like, OK, well, are there other opportunities for us to build this relationship? Prit Covid, I used to always start a play date by just inviting the parent in for like ten minutes or so, have a have a coffee or a snack or something while we the kids kind of started to play and then would be, you know, let them go, have their time, because I think pretty much like after the kids are about four. I mean, certainly if you’re if it’s a close family friend earlier, but about four, like the parent really doesn’t have to stay. Right. Or you could feel comfortable maybe going home after school. I just think there’s some relationship building that needs to happen here and that if you need to put in a little bit of effort with the other parents. And I also think if you do that, you can always ask for what you need to. I mean, I think at this age it’s possible that at some point you’re going to need someone to pick up a kid and, you know, kill 30 minutes or so after school. And so building these relationships through these these little interactions with these other parents enables you to ask for them. You can’t ever influence anybody else’s behavior. So all you can do is try to invest a little bit in these people so that they want to invest back. I don’t know. Those are my thoughts, 100 percent.
S1: Totally agree. I mean, you have to lower the bar. Basically, you can’t expect so much out of people or anything at all, for that matter. You can’t depend on people in that way. So I think it’s totally if it becomes a problem and you really are annoyed of always hosting it, you could say something to the effect of, you know, we’ve done this like three times in a row. What do you what do you think about relocating, doing something else if that’s a little bit too aggressive for you? There’s passive aggressive ways to do it. You know, there’s something that it’s not like baby related, but I had this kind of experience where I was always hosting friends and they were always leaving messes. And I was just so tired of cleaning up after everybody every single time. So I just was just very blunt. And I was like, all right, next time we’re hanging out, we’re doing it at your house, you know? And they were like, sure, let’s do it fine, you know? So sometimes people might just get comfortable in your space. They might just assume that you have no problem with it. I know I do that all the time. My mother usually hosts all of my siblings once a week at her house for like dinner. And then out of nowhere, for me, it was out of nowhere. But like my one time, she was like, OK, but let’s do it at your place, because I’m really tired of cooking. And this week I don’t have time. I didn’t go to grocery shopping and she sounded exasperated. And at that time, I was like, oh, my God, where’s this coming from? But then it occurred to me that we’ve never met up at my house and never met in my brother’s house or anything else like that. So it could just be that, you know, you need to make it clear, make it known. But at the same time, if they say, well, actually, I’m not comfortable with that because x y reasons, you got to respect that. You’re not entitled to their home just because you brought them into yours. So I totally agree with everything you said, Elizabeth.
S2: I, I wondering, too, if you can I don’t know how old are your kids are, but I know mine sometimes will be like, well, we want to play at their house. You know, like if we’re discussing it in person, you know, and I think two of you, if that’s something you want or I’m not saying to put your kids up to it, but I am saying you could also have your kids help with the kind of nudging or bring in the conversation if you’re discussing it in person. I feel like you can always say like, well, whose house should we have? You know, if that because sometimes the kids really want a playdate. And so at least introduce the idea that it doesn’t always have to be on your time. I also just want to say like good job, mom, for hosting these play dates, even though you don’t you don’t love them like we do a
S1: shout out to you.
S2: Yeah. Good job. So I’m sorry. I hope I hope you meet some parents that that are inviting. I don’t think it’s you, but I do think. Invest a little time.
S1: Good luck. Yeah. Or if you really want to be passive aggressive, just don’t offer snacks and don’t offer food because, you know, like if you keep feeding the cat, they’re going to keep coming back. So maybe maybe your snacks are just too delicious.
S2: That’s the problem. The play dates are too fun.
S1: Yeah. You can’t stay stocked, ongo Gert’s and expect kids not to want to come back. I love it. Well, thank you so much for writing in. We hope that helped in some way. If you want us to attempt to answer your parenting questions, don’t forget you can always email us at mom and dad at Slate dot com. All right. So we have a second listener question. Take it away, Shasha.
S3: Dear mom and dad. Do you think atheists and religious folks can be friends? We recently met some neighborhood kids the same age as mine, and they got along great. However, I found out that their sort of religious to the point where the dad post religion themed statuses on social media. We are hardcore atheist. Our son is 12, extremely science minded, cynical and not wanted to be super diplomatic, despite all of my lectures. I can’t imagine a conversation between him and a kid from a religious family going well. On the other hand, it makes me sad that this could prevent a potential friendship. I know as an adult who is extremely conflict averse, I can navigate relationships with anyone of opposing beliefs if I want to, but neither my husband or son are quite the same. What are your thoughts?
S1: OK, great question. This is something that I think about a lot as a Muslim who is nowhere near like a big Muslim community. But I’m kind of worried that you might be projecting a little bit onto this other family. I mean, you don’t really know how a religious person will react to somebody challenging their faith. In a lot of cases. We’re just used to it. I’m a religious person myself, so I don’t know. I’m totally fine with people having their beliefs. And, you know, especially at that age when I was 12, people knew that Muslims didn’t eat bacon. And so they would constantly try and trick me into eating it by like throwing it into my salad when I wasn’t looking or, you know, offering me sandwiches and food with baking it as a joke. I think at that age, as 12 years old, you tend to think everything is funny or silly. I don’t know. Like I feel like maybe I developed a little bit more of a stern outlook as I got older. So I worry that maybe you’re projecting your grown up perspective onto this 12 year old kid. He might have fun arguing with somebody like this, and maybe they might have fun arguing back. And this could be something that brings them together and bonds them even more. You know, and one of the things that I think is really fun about having these kinds of diverse and different religious groups coming together, is that by exposing each other to different perspectives, you know, that’s how you really grow, as you know, both as a religious person and also as a 12 year old kid. You know, I think it’s really helpful to be around people who have totally different views in the sense where you can challenge your own thoughts, have fun creating little conversations and debates around things that you feel are are a given. Maybe one can convince the other on certain things and maybe they can grow stronger. I mean, it’s always possible that they can grow apart and have one’s bit like big explosive fight, and that’s it. But I think it’s your responsibility as the parent to give them the option that didn’t make that choice for them.
S2: I think that’s so well said. Like it seems to me like the idea of cutting off a potential friendship over an issue before it’s an issue. It is not at all like what you want. Like we live in a very diverse world. And I guess I also would consider myself to be very religious. And I enjoy encountering people who think differently than me. And, of course, you know, there’s some confusion with this question, because when I first read it, I thought like, well, do they mean religious or do they mean like we’re having some political issues with that are using religion. Right. That can be something totally different. Like if what we’re talking about is really actually racism, sexism, something like that, then maybe, yes, we we do have a problem again. It seems like you’ve only had the problem with like the dad posting things and not necessarily these kids. So I also would say let’s not cut off these kids for what, you know, their parents, their parents have done. But I guess you refine your own beliefs by having people push up against them. So if anything, having someone that you can discuss these things with is a way to grow your own personal belief system. Right. Like when I lived in the Netherlands and she’s still one of my very dear friends, is an atheist. And she and I have incredible mutual respect for each other. I think she’s incredibly lovely. She’s raising an amazing child. She is so smart. And I ask her for her advice on things all the time because her perspective of things is so valuable to me, because the root of it is so different than mine. And that doesn’t mean that I have to take everything she says, literally. But just even having that foundation of our belief systems be different means that that the way she thinks about things is very different. And that helps me make really good decisions like it. It helps me really think about it, is what I’m saying. Being colored by my beliefs in a good or bad way, like those sort of things. So I think if you can encourage this, I also think look like 12 year olds are are they say a lot of things. They like to be cynical, but they also do a lot of like playing and enjoying other people’s company that have nothing to do with religion. Again, all of this aside, assuming that it’s not some kind of like moral issue that we’re talking more like, do you believe in creationism or evolution like those sort of things? Those can be really interesting discussions. And also you can play Legos or go skateboarding or do whatever in the neighborhood, kick a ball without the ever coming up or being a problem. So I just think the the opportunity to have friends and this opportunity to to learn, especially because you say this is something that your son and your husband struggles with, I think it’s an even better opportunity for them to try to be friends with these people, because at some point you have to learn what some boundaries in friendship look like, like that, trying to convince someone if. Every conversation is trying to convince someone that my way is the best way. That’s not a good friendship, no matter no matter who you are. Right. But the same thing, like if the only people you surround yourself with are people that like have the exact same beliefs. That’s not a great way to live either. So I just think there’s this opportunity here to engage in some of that. And you can definitely model that. It just I don’t know, I think you sort of hinted at this, but I feel like this letter reads like I think there’s going to be this big problem. And now I worry that it’s going to be micromanaged so that it is a problem, as opposed to saying like, I know this thing and I can see that that might be a road bump in the future. So I’m going to prepare myself for when my son comes home and says, like, did you know that X believes or X thinks? And and how am I going to deal with that in a way that is like kind but still conveys the things that are important to our family and I hope to impart on my kid.
S1: That’s a really great point. That’s a brilliant point. I mean, we live in 2021. It’s impossible to avoid people who don’t think exactly like you unless you live in like Saudi Arabia. Right. So they’re going to need to learn eventually to have relationships with people who have totally separate religious beliefs in that. But I’m surprised, Elisabeth, you don’t play ball and talk about God at the same time. Here you go. By the way. No, but that’s a really good point. I really like that because it’s very poignant in the sense where you can’t box people into these tiny little versions of themselves, where everything they do is a response to their religious beliefs. Muslims have this problem where we tend to, you know, have to convince people that we can listen to rock music or rap music or, you know, have whole personalities outside of just being a religious person. You know, as a journalist, I intend to go and report from certain places where there’s a lot of like Republicans and a lot of people who tend to have very particular ideas of who Muslims are and what they believe. But I’m not there to like evangelize people or even to present myself as a Muslim and use that to challenge them. I’m just trying to be a reporter and ask questions about politics and do my job. So it’s usually something that I think we have to learn at a younger age to understand. People are more complicated than their outward identities. Right. You can go in and have like a really great time at a museum or paint or go play and never talk about the certain things that you feel are central to your identity. And I think that’s something that if we were to learn a 12 or even before then seven or eight or whatever, then it would make life much easier and simpler when they do get older and they get a job in some city or wherever, and they’re surrounded by people who don’t think like them. So these are valuable skills. And I think if anything, you should be trying to encourage this kind of friendship and maybe even get them, you know, other kinds of friends. Get a Jewish friend and a Muslim friend or an Amish friend or a really tall friend and really short a friend, you know, try and get them around as many people as possible so that they can learn to respect the fact that people are more complicated than they might first seem.
S2: You know, I think, too, because so much of parenting is like preparing your child or trying to prepare your child for life. You are going to come across in your workplace, people of different religions who are observing their religious beliefs there. You are certainly going to be invited to weddings and, you know, bar mitzvahs, bar mitzvahs, to other cultural celebrations. And I would hope that one of your goals is to raise a child that can go to these things and appreciate them and not feel affronted that these. I’m here to celebrate these friends or celebrate these people. Right. And what they believe, even if I don’t believe it, like I think one of the things I love about traveling and taking the kids traveling is getting to see these different things. We took the kids to Morocco over Christmas. And one of the awesome things about it was to like have this day that was so important to us and not important to anyone there. And it was such a good, I don’t know, like just thing to demonstrate to the kids, because we have otherwise always been in a culture in which everyone is celebrating Christmas. And so to have us like being the only ones to have this very private celebration, not the only ones, but certainly not the whole town is not decked out. There aren’t Christmas events. Right. There’s other stuff going on. And to really appreciate that and learn about that and and see that to me is really important. And it taught them this lesson of like, we can appreciate this beauty. We can learn how to behave in different situations and even how to respectfully observe these different religious beliefs or cultural things. Right. Even if we don’t believe them, we. And be there and be part of that and respectful, and I just think that if what we want is like a world that is more inclusive, it is about learning where those lines of respect are. And this is a great opportunity to to teach that, especially again, because I feel like so much of this is coming, because you saw some posts on Facebook. This dad does not have to be your best friend. In fact, these friends like it could turn out that that it is a constant topic and it is a problem, in which case they can just be like the outdoor friends that play soccer or play baseball. It is OK to have those people in your life and know how to have them and what boundaries you you can have.
S1: Well, said Shnaps, SLAPP before you. It’s just let let things play out. And you hope that you’ve given them the tools that they can be good human people. So, yeah,
S2: that’s parenting, man.
S1: That’s parenting, man.
S2: See all the fun you have ahead of you. The thing is, like so much of this parenting stuff, like we’ve lived it, right? So like we’re seeing our kids do it. But we also have this like lived experience of having had these experiences and feeling like, did I handle these right and not handle these right. And looking back as a parent is like crazy, like, oh, jeez, yikes.
S1: Yeah, I’ve heard that from other parents, that everything that you do, you’re going to be able to see in a good way or in a bad way, and that you just need to have faith that you’re doing the things the best that you can. And and nature heals itself.
S2: You know, I think exactly. We’re all trying our best. And at some point, you just have to say, well, I can’t give anything else. All I can do is my best. I can continue to refine and make changes. Right. And and do better as I grow and learn. But like that, that’s really that’s really all you can do.
S1: That’s all you can do and be and be grateful that we can do that, at least. OK, so. Well, thank you so much for all of our listeners for writing in. And if you have an update at some point, please let us know. We appreciate the updates because we’d like to know whether or not our advice worked or if it didn’t work. So we could start painting that advice out. And to the rest of our listeners out there, are you looking for some excellent parenting advice or not so excellent parenting advice? Well, that’s what we do here. Please email us at mom and dad at Slate dot com. OK, so it’s time for us to move on to recommendations. Elizabeth, what you got?
S2: OK, well, Aymann, you have much too young of a baby to even know what I’m talking about here. But I and I don’t know that this is the thing when we were kids, I don’t know. My kids are really into mostly Henry and Oliver into Perler beads, which are like those little plastic beads that you put on things and you melt and you can make stuff and you begin to make. Do you? OK, so they’re big into making these like key chains and they make things they hand them out to their friends. I think it’s super cute. It’s great. It’s really good for candy coordination. The problem is the beads go everywhere. I have like they’re all in a bin and I have a tray. It’s just a giant mess. And then I was walking through Target and I saw this. It’s called the Perler bead craft beads. Sweeper. I mean, not doesn’t really roll off the tongue, but it’s basically like a crumb scraper from a fancy restaurant. But for Perler beads, you like roll it over and it collects all the beads in in the back and then you can just dump them in there. It is the best thing ever. If your kids are into Perler beads, you need to go buy one of these because it not only can you pick up the beads very quickly, it’s like a fun little car. And the kids like to pick up the beads and it just you don’t you won’t be like picking them up or trying to sweep them off the table into the bucket and they’re going everywhere. So anyway, go out. Get yourself a Perler bead craft bead Sweeper. I am sure they are going to put a link in the show notes. If you’re into Perler beads, please get yourself one of these. It is so worth it.
S1: That’s amazing. Is it weird to get that for adults?
S2: No. I mean, there are many little things you could pick up with. You’ll see you’ll need soon. You’ll be when you start feeding. It’s like the kids leave crumbs everywhere. Everywhere. You’re like, oh, you’re at a friend’s house. You go to people’s house that don’t have kids. They like leave crumbs. I we actually ended up buying one of those like crumb sweepers and bringing it with us because we were so embarrassed by like the mess the kids.
S1: Yeah, it’s just continuing this.
S2: This is where my my OCD comes in a bit like the I can not have the beads floating around. They need to be put away. I could not have the love
S1: on the table. You’re finding these kinds of shortcuts because those are the types of things that will just destroy my self-esteem when it comes to showing up to people’s houses of the baby.
S2: I know, right. All right. So what do you have for us?
S1: I just ordered something and it hasn’t come in yet. So I can’t say it is the most amazing product. And you should get it. X, y, z, x, y, z. But I’m really excited. I take a lot of pictures on my phone. I have. Thousands of pictures of this kid who just basically just came out, but I have like thousands of pictures of them already, and it’s really it’s a troublesome for me to have to scroll up, scroll up, because there’s like one picture I remember that I can’t always find and I’m not always going to collect all the pictures I want and and send it to to a printer to get all the pictures printed. So I went and I found like this mini Kodak, like four by seven printer, which will print photo album sized pictures on demand. And it takes up just about as much space on your table as the photo itself. And I have all these photo albums that I don’t know what to do with. So I just went ahead and ordered this printer. And I’m really excited because I have all these really cute pictures of him just doing like a funny face or a picture of him being squeezed in between both of us. And we’re taking a picture of one of the things that I will never like. They’ll never get printed like huge or anything like. Yeah, but just something that I want as a little memento for myself, something that maybe Mooz can confides when he’s older and see like a picture book. You know, I’m also really worried about like switching a phone or dropping this phone in the lake then and all those memories are gone. So I really like the idea of having like a hard copy somewhere in the house as little archive, you know, not going to scrapbook and go all out with that. Maybe I’ll maybe I’ll feel differently about that later. But right now, I think it’s a it’s like a it was like a really quick impulse buy. It was like a hundred bucks. But at the same time, I’m really looking forward to having physical albums, you know, and one of the things that I really cherished as a kid was sitting around and going through these albums with my parents and having them point to people that I didn’t know who were holding me as a baby. I was like, who is that person? They say, oh, that was my friend X. There were a lot of fun. They took you to the zoo. All these like memories that I can revisit. And I’m really hoping that I could do that with my son, too.
S2: I love this so much. And I’m going to tell you, because a one is a recommendation that needs an update, because you have to let us know if it’s awesome. But to. OK, I’m going to give you a project you have to do with this thing you’ve just purchased. You need to make a little photo album of either all I know you’re taking pictures of who’s holding him and stuff, but like take photos of him with the with different people or all that and just make a little photo album, because he’s about to be obsessed. He might already be obsessed with faces. And because we didn’t live near our family, I printed up I called them like my kid’s Facebook, like this is Henry’s Facebook. And at night or like when we were playing, I would look at the book and be like, this is your grandma, Mike. Tell a little, you know, or this is your grandpa. And some of the pictures were like pictures. They were with me doing something or they were doing this cool thing. And I was like, kind of tell them about the pictures. But even now, like they love these books, like they love them. They love to look at them like they’re older now. They like it’s like a comfort item. And I love that I got to share these people with, you know, my kids when they were obsessed with looking at faces like I could make sure they were seeing the faces. So since you have this little printer, you can even like update like, oh, you went on, this is your friend that you went on your first playdate with. You know, so I think you need to make a little Musso’s Facebook and make sure you’re like sharing it with him even now, because he’s going to start just really staring at pieces and trying to look and see, like, does this face look familiar to me? And they just love seeing like photos.
S1: Oh, I love that idea. I’m totally going to do that. And I hate showing him pictures on my phone, too. That just doesn’t feel right. So I try to limit his screen time at two months old. We do a little bit of face time, but that’s more for his grandparents than for him. But I love the idea of like having the physical pictures for us for him to look at.
S2: Yeah, it’s like a real book like that. You know what I’m thinking? Like, well, all the good information is on the phone, which they will think anyway, because, you know, like it beeps and you pick the inevitable. Yeah. But I do think like it’s kind of like your first opportunity to say like books are really important. And here’s one with all these people that love you and all these faces you love to look at and now you can like. I just love that you could just like print up a new one and throw it at, you know, like be changing it up to. Oh, yeah, that’s very cool.
S1: Love is awesome. I’m totally going to do that. That’s a great
S2: idea. OK, we have to let us know if, like, how the the pictures are and if you like it and if you’re using it as much, because I think it’s such a good idea for for new parents to have.
S1: Oh, I will. So that’s our show one last time. If you have a question for us, please email us at mom and dad at Slate dot com or post it to the Slate Parenting Facebook group. Just search for Slate’s parenting. Mom and dad are fighting is produced by Morgan Flannery for Elizabeth New Camp. I’m Amina Smale. Thank you for listening. By parents by. And so for the Slate plus listeners, we’re going to keep it going. Ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay. OK, so this week we’re talking about the concept of free range kids. According to a recent article in The Guardian titled Let the Big Kids, is free range parenting the key to healthier, happier children? New York based writer and activist Lenore Skenazy advocates for what she describes as free range parenting. She says that while she loves safety as it applies to Helmet’s car seats, safety belts and so on, she also believes children should be given more freedom, which builds confidence and independence. And although it’s scarier for parents today than it has been for parents of previous generations, we must trust them to make their own decisions and allow them out by themselves. Dun dun dun. At what age are you willing to let your kids play outside without adult supervision? Or is that totally off the table for you? Elizabeth, what do you think?
S2: It’s obviously not totally off the table for me.
S1: She’s like, get out of the house.
S2: You know what? I feel like 90 percent of my triumphs and fail start with. And then I told the school side and I was sitting inside and here’s what happened. You know, it’s hard to like think of my life pre netherland’s, because this was definitely something I learned in the Netherlands. Like when I was here, I felt like I was like I was always the most lax parents on the playground in the States when when Henry was little. And then we moved to the Netherlands and I was the helicopter parents like doing the exact same thing. And so I definitely loosened up even more. Like just I mean, our kids were basically biking to and from school at five or six without us, like the whole neighborhood would go. Now, granted, it’s a very different like everybody’s going to school. We would bike them in the morning, but they would come home for lunch on their own, like with a little group, or I’d let them go to the park by themselves, which I know like here seems completely crazy. And so much of it is about where you live, what your situation is, what are the real dangers? Because I think one of the things this article says is like basically there are real dangers. Right. But there are things like helmets and seatbelts and car seats and all those kind of things. Plus, knowing your child and if you take those into consideration, you really can let them go out and make some mistakes. And a lot you know, like a lot of times you have enough of a buffer up that the mistakes are not going to be cataclysmic. But they are you know, they are going to come back like soaked in mud. You know, we let a kid wander off and he got sucked into basically quicksand. Like those are the kind of things that happen if you have free range children. And I mean, there are definitely people who have much more free range than we do. We do have some rules, but like my kids all play outside unsupervised because I know that they won’t go into the road. Right. Once I knew that, we established that we have little things like in the grocery store. I give Henry a list for a different aisle and he goes and gets the things and comes back to my cart. But we also have like a system of calls where if he gets lost or he can’t find me, he we’ve talked about this before. He beeps and I beat back. That’s like a thing the new cats do. And it’s super weird, but it works. So like having these things. But I do think it’s a way for them to like experiment and get into some trouble and and learn when the risks are really low. And I at least think I mean, listen, Teddy’s four and I say all the time, like he is just feral. We’re still seeing if like these instill some rules in him. But my other two really understand that when we have rules, they’re for a purpose because we kind of let them do mostly whatever instill in it until there’s a problem or there’s a reason for a rule. You know, I, I don’t know I. All the time. I’m just like sitting back on the playground in the Netherlands, like they always had cafes and the parents would be in the cafe, like we’d be having coffee and eating and the kids would kind of be playing. And it was sort of the community at large was kind of making sure they don’t run into the lake. But shy of that, it was sort of like figure it out. You know, it’s like drowning, real risk falling off this playground equipment. Not real risk, though. They’ll cry and it’ll be fine, you know, or it will be fine. We’ll go to the doctor like that. That was very much.
S1: Yeah. Maybe the hill quick. It’s fun.
S2: Yeah. Are you going to be letting be Mousseau wander around, are you?
S1: Of course. I mean, isn’t that the default? Am I am I missing something? I kind of resent the freeride, the default part of this, right. It almost sounds like our kids are chickens and like, no, this is not a chicken. He’s he’s a kid. So I feel like he can make decisions. I don’t know. Elizabeth, you can you can try and real me in here if I’m talking too much like a dad here. Right. Maybe I don’t have like that bio. I don’t carry the kid, so. I can’t maybe have that biological connection, but in my mind, I want him to go out and get hurt and make mistakes and come back scarred and come back messy. I mean, that’s the point, right? They do these things when they’re younger so that when they get older, they know that not to do certain things. I do live in a city and one of the street that I live on is a very fast paced. You know, there’s like people who are driving up and down, like racing cars, motorcycles, you know, huge trucks, diesel trucks. So in that sense, I do need to establish the ground rules first. So I would say as soon as they understand not to run out into the middle of the street or that they have to wait for the crosswalk, or that a red light mean something in a green light means something. I’m just going to say go and come back when you’re hungry. We have like several parks in the area. We have several parents in the area. I don’t know them personally, but I trust them enough to to be the cops, to be the baby cops. All of this is part of growing up. And I think that should be the default rate. That should be free range. That’s just being a child. And if you do the other thing, you’re raising a bubble, baby. You know, you’re sort of protecting them from the world on the really ridiculous hope that you can, but you actually can’t protect them from the world. They’re going to go out eventually. They’re going to experience heartbreak. They’re going to experience pain. They might break a bone. They’re going to do all of these things in the world. That’s just part of being alive. So if you don’t let them experience these things very early on, they’re going to have a much harder time acclimating when they’re older. And it doesn’t it’s not second nature for them. I grew up in the city where I’m planning on raising my sons, so I feel like maybe I have the advantage. I know there’s certain parks that are cleaner and nicer and more baby friendly than other parks. You know, I know which streets to avoid because I do know there’s like a racing culture here and people like to speed with their cars. So I’m going to say avoid that street, avoid that park, go to this playground. And then after that, if they do what they do, it’s fine. One thing that I am thinking about, and this is something that my wife actually suggested was giving him an Apple Watch or whatever comes out at that age where there’s like a GPS tracker, so that we know that if he’s ever in real trouble, if he gets in a car, we can see or if he ends up in like a neighboring town, we’ll be able to find them right away, you know. But as far as parenting style goes, I’m going to get this kid wheels as soon as I can. As soon as he could ride a bike, I’m just going to let him go. And, you know, it’s like feeding a pigeon that you just get them used to knowing where the food is. And when they get hungry, they’ll come back.
S2: They do make all kinds of kitto latch trackers and things. We used one when we were traveling a lot by train, because I was really worried that in the hustle and bustle that someone might get lost, especially when they were little. So those are there. Would you let them? Kushi, in the article she talks about previously she had written and parents sort of jumped all over her because she lets her kids ride the subway on their own. Would you let them use public transportation?
S1: Of course. I mean, that’s what is therefore. Right. I mean, I rode the subway and went to the city and my parents never knew about it. You know, I’ve done so much stuff that my parents will never know about. And I think that’s fine if we sort of survive and we protect each other. And I was like maybe 13, 14 when I started doing that thing. But the there’s always somebody in the city who’s willing to help. You know, the city has a bad reputation in the sense we’re worried about. Kidnapers are worried about people offering your kid candy with drugs in it. I’ve always thought like those druggies are going to think of that as like a waste of drugs. They’re not going to want to give it to a kid for free. So I’m not so much worried about that, the stigma of the city, because I’m from here and I know that there’s always somebody who wants to help and that if somebody sees a kid doing something they’re not supposed to do. You don’t need to be that kid’s parent to tell them that that’s not what you’re supposed to do. This is the right thing to do. And I’ve had that when I grew up. And I don’t think that that’s changed so much. You know,
S2: even just because people are slightly kinder to two kids. Right. Like, OK, this kid is learning like we all hopefully have that perspective. But I think go let them play out front unless you live on a dangerous road. If they know how to stay out of the road. You know,
S1: I do feel like I need to acknowledge, though, that I might be talking a big game because my baby is two months old and I do get really afraid of something bad happening to him for no reason. You know, I’ll I’ll hear it like a gargling sound in the middle of the night and I’ll jump out of bed and go look at him and make sure he didn’t like sped up and is drowning in it or anything like that. I’ve done that like three times already, and it’s never anything bad. It’s the. Or anything bad, you know, I am realizing that this has more to do with me managing my own emotions around this child than this child actually being protected by me from some sort of hypothetical danger. And so I feel like I need to appreciate that, because that might be what these parents are going through. The ones who are being really afraid of letting their kids go out and experiencing life, because they might think that, you know, the world is so dangerous. And a lot of cases there is. And there’s always like these freak accidents. You know, there was a mom whose baby was snatched by a monkey in India. You know, it’s it’s scary. It’s scary. But at the same time, you know, you need to negotiate those feelings yourself and not inflict some long lasting, you know, complications on your kid’s life. If they don’t know how to go to the park for themselves and make new friends by themselves or, you know, handle the bullying situation by themselves or even figure out how to navigate the streets by themselves, because that in itself is a skill that is going to be impossible for them to learn if their hands are being held the whole time.
S2: I was going to ask to Sara, if you feel like free range parenting, too. So obviously, like I’m raising three, you know, little white boys and free range parenting like for them seems in some ways like a privilege. Right? Because I don’t there are a lot of things I don’t have to worry about that other parents have to worry. I mean, even things that like you may have to worry about. And actually that time you came on and talked. And plus, we we kind of talked about this like in naming your son and then thinking that what am I sending out there to the world? So this this idea, you know, I obviously would love for all children to be able to just be set free with very little instructions. But that’s that’s also not a reality. And I do think when we talk about this, we have to keep that in mind. Right, that it’s very different for little girls just because of the culture we live in. It’s definitely very different if your skin is not white or depending on where you know you live in your neighborhood and all of that. And so I wonder how much that plays into being able to make the decision to have, like, you know, go out and play and then come back and and feeling safe.
S1: No, I think that’s a that’s a really good point. You know, but I think on the flip side of that, that’s why that’s why I’m using the word negotiation, because you’re going to give and take with every choice that you’re making in this case. So you might give a little bit more freedom, but then you have to handle, you know, the XIV that comes along with that as a parent. But at the same time, if you restrict them, then you’re going to also be giving them this like a disadvantage in the real world when they do get to a certain age and they don’t know how to interact with kids when they’re 16 or 17 or when they go to college and they’re going to be by themselves, if you want that much control over them for that long. You know, one of the things that I have had to reckon with as a Muslim American is the stigma that a lot of Muslim Americans have over how you how you treat little boys and little girls differently in the sense where little girls need a lot more protection. You know, you don’t want them to go to the park by themselves because you don’t know if they can handle themselves. But little boys, whatever you you leave the door unlocked, it’s fine. They go on Sundays as they please. And I see this a lot in my community. And I feel I’m sure it happens in other communities, too. But, you know, you can tell you can tell when you meet someone who was lived their whole lives in a bubble, and you can tell when they don’t know, like the social cues and how to how to interact and be comfortable and and be challenged and be comfortable in that kind of thing. So I think the give and take is real. And that if you are in this position where you don’t really know what to do, you can always, always, always get binoculars.
S2: You know, I hear no, no, I love that boy. I was actually when you were talking, I was thinking like there are so many ways to give up just a little bit, too. Like if you’re at the park and they’re going to the playground, choosing like a bench or something that’s a bit further away and letting them go by themselves, like there’s there’s lots of ways to kind of extend that leash without just like pushing them out the door or like if you’re at a museum, let your kids go walk into a different room than you, you know, like, OK, I think so much of it is saying like, I need you to be back at this time and then demonstrating that they will be back at this time or that they can handle themselves somewhere. But you can do that without being 10 miles away or two miles away. And so I think even with all of these restraints and whatever your anxiety is, there are ways to find, you know, to give them just a little bit more freedom while you still feel safe and keeping them safe.
S1: Totally. And you can also try the beep situation. You’re going to beep. Yeah. Aymann for sure doing that. By the way. I am. So thanks, as always to the slate plus member. Various we love you guys a little bit more. Just remember that until next time.
